tealin | Canvassing the Internet: Platonic Admiration

YES! Oh my god, yes!

Though that kind of admiration is often referred to as a "girl crush" or "guy crush" if the the subject and the object are the same gender (and assuming the crush-er is straight.)

But it's completely possible (and I think, more common than most people will admit) to respect and admire someone with nothing more behind it than that. I think that those who maintain otherwise are really telling us more about themselves than about humanity in general.

I know of the 'girl/guy crush' phenomenon but unfortunately it rarely applies to me; the objects of my admiration in real life are mostly in the male-dominated fields of animation or science, and with a very few exceptions male characters are just plain more interesting than female ones, generally. I don't know if it's conscious but it seems that when a character is developed, anything goes for a male but there are specific boundaries for a female in order to keep her still feeling female (the same goes for design), which tend to water down whatever inherent awesomeness there might be.

First off, with you on the "where was I when the passed out hormones" much to my poor boyfriends disappointment.

Anyway
Oh 99% of my admiration is platonic, even for hot movie actors I like (I mean I'll joke but I'd much rather encounters be platonic).

However, I do often still express things sometimes sexually in a joking manner, and seriously, I think it's because of the word "love."

The English language is *not* well built for platonic admiration and a lot of words can be used for either platonic or erotic admiration and with the western culture being so hung up on sex I think it's unsurprising that things are turned into jokes and such. Especially when you know the situation is not likely to actually ever be romantic.

Or things are assumed to be romantic just because that's the only words we have.

Does that make any sense?

Good point ... while English is an incredibly rich language with way too many synonyms and a ridiculous number of specific words for specialized things, it is rather lacking when it comes to ways to express deep affection. And it is hung up on sex. Or at least Americans are. The Brits (from what I've managed to garner from Radio 4) are still trying to compensate for their Imperial reputation for prudishness, which leads to being hung up on it in a different way, whereas Canadians take it remarkably casually ... maybe it's the French influence, or being Not American, or the way they're pretty mellow about nearly everything ...

I've found that any platonic admiration I have quickly turns to something sexual when the subject is the opposite gender. Perhaps it's biological. Something along the lines of: "You're talented, and awesome. My ego tells me I'm talented and awesome. Therefore my biological imperative tells me we should mate, a lot, and have offspring to continue our talented awesomeness!"

I have forced those thoughts back to merely friendly admiration when she's seeing someone, or I'm seeing someone, or some other impassible barrier exists, but for a moment, the notion is always entertained.

That being said I've had platonic admiration for Audrey Hepburn and Tom Selleck's moustache. Neither of which has ever been sexual.

Seconded. However, I have an excuse: adolescence. I'm not sure what I'll do when my last couple of adolescence-years are up. Blame it on my immature prefrontal cortex, probably.

It's entirely possible to admire a character of the opposite sex without wanting to jump them. For example, I love Vimes. But I don't want to do having sex with him. I just think it would be totally awesome to hang out with him and be all grumpy together. Same with Snape.

*delurks*

Mmmyes, I've seen that, too.

It came up recently when a coworker asked me to name fictional characters I'd marry, and I honestly couldn't come up with many/any (the best I got, being pressed, was maybe Mr. Darcy?). I like a lot o characters... I just don't want to marry them!

I think some people do have a functional grasp of this distinction... but just as many don't, apparently (and granted, sometimes people who DO grasp the difference just like to tease... but that's different). Sometimes I think that the Internet exacerbates this fuzzing of the line between admiration and physical attraction. But I freely admit that I've never tried to verify this notion.

Agreed: the Internet definitely encourages lusting after whatever. Fan communities tend to be founded and mostly populated by people who desperately want to get in bed with the object of the fannage, and if you don't, well, you're the only one. Hence my general avoidance of most fan communities on de web. Scary stuff, had enough of that already, thanks.

YES. EXACTLY. When I try to explain to fandom people why I "left" fandom, it usually boils down to some version of this.

FWIW, to me, 'marriable' is a (tiny) subset of 'fanciable', whereas 'admirable' is an intersecting set with 'fanciable'.

Oh yeah, I totally get what you're saying. I used to fall madly in love with every fictional character I respected or admired or thought was awesome, but now it's more a 'hey you're neat' reaction. Vetinari, for example, is someone that is awesome and that I would totes chill with, but would absolutely not want to do anything biological with. I mean, a) he's like old and b) he's kind of a weirdo. But whatever, I don't judge.

But yeah I get what you're saying. And I was definitely not behind the door when the hormones where handed out lol.

Er. I wouldn't want to chill with Vetinari either. Admire from a distance, perhaps.

I believe that fandom sexualizes its objects of admiration out of force of habit more than any inherent trait of said object. That has got to be the only explanation for the abundant blatantly OOC sexual idealizations out there.

Pretty much all of my interests in others (as friends, admiration, affection for fictional characters) are strictly platonic, and i do resent it a little when people expect me to join them in jumping down the pants of [X figure]. male, female, or other.

Protesting seems to lead only to teasing, so i just ignore any such insinuations and continue quietly; more often than not, a consistent pattern of failing to act like a teenager whenever they're mentioned will convince people of the truth.

Mostly, it's harmless, though. The little monkeys like to look at the big monkeys and mate with them, if at all possible.

a consistent pattern of failing to act like a teenager

I love this phrase. In a strictly platonic way, of course. :) It may become my motto, if that's all right with you.

"I thought that when I joined the grownup world that mindset had been left behind"

Don't believe the rumors. It seems to me that sometimes grown-ups are actually a lot worse in the innuendo department. Everything's about sex, and if it isn't, we'll damn well make it so. Apparently the penguins in Happy Feet are "obviously" homosexual because they like dancing and singing, according to one reporter. "We know what's going on here," he says, "even if the kids don't." We do? Apparently I didn't get that memo. Maybe because my mind isn't occupied with penguin sex all the time.

I have a lot of favorite characters in literature and films that I am not the least bit attracted to sexually but because I admire their intellect or quirky traits. Many people seem, for some reason, unable to separate the actor and the character from one another. I can like Jack Sparrow as a character, but I lust neither after him or Johnny Depp. I can like Vetinari as a character, but have no dirty thoughts about him or any actors who've portrayed him in the flesh. Maybe this kind of thinking is seen as childish by some people. Perhaps they think it's not normal to like a fictional character, it's just something someone made up. You need an excuse, like a sexy actor to portray them on screen, or telling yourself it's the character traits that you're looking for in an ideal mate. So you're not fixated on this fictional character based on things like, y'know, emotions and relatability, inside you're really just a healthy adult looking for reasons to bone someone.

I have no idea why people would think platonic admiration is weird. Most people I know of thinks that it's normal.

It's possible that what made me think that perception was a high school thing was that it's not as common in Canada – after all, Canadians aren't as sexually repressed as Americans (see television) and therefore might not be quite so obsessed and reactionary (see the response to the famous 'wardrobe malfunction' in either country). But it's a tenuous theory.

it's my old country all over again.

Also, Utah.

Helloooooooo repression. I'm surprised they don't still cover up their table and chair legs like the Victorians did. And everything is soooo scandalous. SO. GLAD. I AM OUT.

I'm totally with you on the hormone and platonic thing. Hell, I'm tired of every m/f relationship on TV going down the sex/romance road when the ratings get low enough-- amazingly, men and women are capable of having relationships with each other that don't revolve around sex. But yeah, I admire plenty of both male and female fictional characters in film, fiction, animation, etc., without having an actual crush on them. I think we're too used to compartmentalizing everything into separate little spaces that we don't know how to handle something that doesn't fit into any one box in a neat and tidy fashion.

I'm tired of every m/f relationship on TV going down the sex/romance road

Yeah ... I have to admit this is a big reason why I've been so hesitant to explore seasons of the new Doctor Who past Season 1, because I've heard things. I loved that this wacky immortal alien-in-human-form could go on adventures through time and space with a young attractive Earth female and not get embroiled in chemistry -- I found that a refreshing, charming, novel and unique approach to a TV relationship.

we don't know how to handle something that doesn't fit into any one box in a neat and tidy fashion

We could ... make a new box?

I AM SECONDING THAT THOUGHT.

Including the Doctor Who Corollary. And I wasn't even around for the old series; it's just logic... (although the fact that DrWh ranks like a 0 on the sci-fi hardness scale probably factors into it somehow)

Yup, been there. I used to love, love, love Remus Lupin (until he got all de-mystified, he works best as a mysterious character), but I never used to fantasise about what he looked like underneath the robes or anything like that. I avoided any sex-infested Lupin fics, because they felt so wrong. I just didn't like Lupin that way.

This spring and summer I had some sort of weird fascination with a very real person. It started as an innocent Google search to find out who he was (he's sort of a bit famous, but I had never heard about him before), and it turned out that he was a very interesting person. I could relate to some of the stuff that has happened in his life. A guy I know from over the net said that this was definitely a crush, but I've had crushes before, and this was not like that. I just thought he sounded like a seriously cool fella. The man is crazily talented and really not all that hot, to be honest.

Lucky for me I've found a very friendly board to hang out at, where it's perfectly fine to discuss your feelings for any book- of film-character or the actors portraying them. Since not all of my real-life friends or even online-friends are that respectful, I've decided that it will be the only place I'll ever talk about things like that.

Lupin was mysterious? I thought that by the end of the third book you practically knew everything you needed to about his life story ... I dunno, I liked him better when he had a personality, never mind the mystery business.

You're lucky you found such a place online ... I didn't think they existed, what with the internet being the way it is.

Well, sure, but awesomeness covers a lot of ground as far as my hormones are concerned. It's not all physical. Of course, a significant proportion IS physical, so I do get these moments where someone does something ridiculously wonderful and part of my brain goes "omg, would hit that" for a second until the rest kicks in and reminds me, no, you actually wouldn't, technically speaking.

Examples: In SGA, I am not particularly attracted to Rodney McKay, but reading fic I am not actually looking at him, so the mental properties have a higher effect ratio (this is like the thing where you crush on an internet penpal until you see photos, although that always makes me feel sort of shallow) and besides, I AM attracted to John Sheppard so Mckay-POV fics are handy like that. In Bandom, it is generally agreed upon that Gerard Way is objectively sort of silly looking, but jesus, put that man on a stage and I do not give a damn. His stage presence seriously actually overrides his "if michael jackson's surgeon hadn't missed the mark quite so spectacularly" features. Actually being in a rock band (a good one, obvsly) is a boost of some level to anybody's attractiveness, hence groupies.

But yes, sometimes people are so far off your personal scale of hotness that no amount of awesome is going to override that. It's easier to tell when they aren't in text-based fiction, because c'mon, movie Draco Malfoy and Remus Lupin and Sirius Black (I mean, well, okay, and HARRY POTTER) were completely not hot at all, but by then it was too late!

I guess the point of a mindcrush is that if those qualities were accompanied by an attractive appearance you would totally be all over that, and then you, well, feel sort of shallow. So.

Anyway, the wink-nudge thing is by no means universal, I spent some portion of last night squeeing with my (male, straight) friend over Stephen Colbert and how amazing he is (the man SPEAKS ELVISH) and the point never came up. People do tend to joke about that sort of thing, but only initially. Once it becomes clear that your admiration is genuine (and, well, as long as you didn't blush hilariously enough the first time to warrant a running joke) people mostly stop.

Well, I certainly identify strongly with characters that I'm not sexually attracted to. But yeah, I do think it is more rare to like a character without attaching sex than it is to be attracted to a character, in fandom in general.

*No* *Effing* *Kidding* this is annoying. That people read sex into every instance of attraction, that is. I think ani_bester is spot-on about it partly being a deficiency of the English language. Our feelings for our parents, our children, our siblings, our friends, our significant others, our pets, our favorite movies, and chocolate are all described by the same word. Some confusion is inevitable.

And I think *you* are spot on about this being an especially American disease, because our culture is so schizo when it comes to sex. We're simultaneously obsessed with it and horrified of it. Maybe we're obsessed with it *because* we're horrified of it--fear is a strong motivator, after all.

Anyway, it's frustrating. We humans are too complicated for our own good.

Wanna know how to get a roomful of people laughing?

Shout "SEX!" as loudly as you can.

It works.

EVERY. TIME.

I much prefer 'booger sandwich.' It even makes me laugh when I'm all alone and staring at a computer screen on which I've just typed it. I wonder what it says about me, considering I got it from a comedian who suggested it as a test for cannabis-related DUI...

With you all the way. (And not in any innuendo-ish fashion, either.)

Generally, I get attached to characters if I relate to them, want to be like them in some way, or find something they've done or something they stand for unutterably awesome. Physical attractiveness usually turns me off, because it seems like whenever the PTBs make a Thing of the character's sexiness the rest of their characterization goes down the drain. Far more interesting are the murky depths of their mind, especially the bits that actually help them cope with life (or that they fight down in order to cope anyway). Vimes and his inner Watchman are a case in point.

I like to think that I admire and respect my fictional characters because I want to be them, not do them. So, yes. I hear you.

When we started dating, my boyfriend wanted to know which fictional character he had to act like to get me in the mood. I was flabbergasted. I had never considered my favorite characters in such a manner. . .

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

So many times I've stumbled across material on the internet or on television (heck, everywhere), and thought, with the raising of a prudish eyebrow and accompanying disconcerted expression, 'is this really all people think about?'

I agree that there's just so much emphasis on lust and sexual attraction in just about everything, whether you're one age or another, that trying to navigate the notion of 'attraction' and 'love' with the 'but can't I just like them because I like them!??' mindset can throw people off.
Why, for instance, would you choose to have a favourite actor or movie character or novel character who's an eighty year old woman, when there are just so many hot young guy characters to have a crush on? And how, if your favourite actor or character does happen to be a hot young guy, can you admire and respect and like them as a character without always thinking about sex and how cute they looks in their costume?

Granted, I think I was also off somewhere when the general teenage hormones were being handed out (probably sitting on a park bench somewhere clicking my tongue disapprovingly at teenage culture in general), but it certainly hasn't affected my ability to love and relate to characters or people I admire, and I'm glad to hear other people feel the same way!
My boyfriend and I recently came up with the phrase 'admiration crush', to describe all the feelings we have for our various favourite people, real and fictional, that have nothing to do with gender or sexuality or lust, and everything to do with liking that person's character - from a talented actor in a movie to a fictional character you just love, to that cool elderly friend you find utterly adorable and want to turn out like some day - all platonic feelings and all entirely genuine.

Great discussion topic, Tealin, it's been good hearing other people's opinions!

I've definitely calmed down a bit, though only in the field of writing characters. I've always been very reticent about expressing my admiration for anyone, whether I know them or not, simply because I have an obsessive fear of being called a 'stalker'. The only enthusiasm that could qualify is when I'm squeeing in a humorous manner over some eye-candy.

I don't really have any advice that would be healthy for your psychological being, as I'm rather aware that being afraid to even ask for an autograph is a sign of something being wrong.

This. This this this. I'm sick and tired of having to explain to people what 'heteroromantic asexual' means. The short definition is 'me'.

I've noticed I go for the actors/actresses who actually have talent, male or female, and if being good-looking is a side effect, so be it (ie, colin firth, kate winslet).

My college was big on college football and just about every girl I knew wanted to do the starting quarterback, his star reciever, or the tough-yet-smoldering-grey-eyed safety. I went for the tight end, who, granted, was good looking, but I had a class with him and, holy cow, he was one of the most intelligent, articulate people I'd ever had class with. He asked all the right questions and, if I was stuck in a room with him, I'd be too busy talking to him to worry about getting in his pants.

I dunno if its platonic, though. The brains are hugely attractive - maybe I just express myself in a different way? Maybe it would be like our brains were mating as we talked..?

THE SQUICK, IT BURNS

Aye aye!
I use to be silly when i was kid and liked all the heros in my books, but i wonder now ifit was more, I wished guys I knew were like that, sort of a wistful thinking crush... if that makes sense..
Cause I just don't understand how people obsessed over fictional make believe characters, I can understand loving the personality and traits of a character, I'm guilty myself of falling for characters, but not so much the character but as wow i wish there were a guy out there like that for me and such, but obsessing of the character themselves is i dunno, just seems like a waste of time in a way, cause.

As for real people, I hate it when you just want to meet a guy and they just think you want to snog them and have a relationship when in all aspects, i'd just like to get to know them and think they'd be a fun person to hang out with, same with when i tell my freinds that a guy looks like he'd be nice, yeah i get the nudging and the "ooooo"s but when i honestly just would like to get to know someone, then i want to avoid them incase my pals try to push something.

Opinion: People are dumbasses. Innuendo fails to go away when you grow up. As animals, our bodies are wired to want sex. As humans, we're supposed to be able to think beyond instinct.
There are SEVERAL fictional characters I like with asolutely no sexual connotation behind them. Take the entire cast of Avatar, for example. Or Sam Vimes. You don't need physical attraction to get mental attraction. That's what makes friends. An attraction to a fictional character can be just as strongly, "I'd LOVE to be friends with that person!" as anything else.
But you're never gonna escape the innuendo because of that whole being animals thing. And because people are dumbasses.

Myself included.

Not everybody's body is wired to want sex. Mine, for instance.

Oh,no! I was not trying to imply that it's a 100% universal thing! But, in you take the whole of the human race, I'd say the vast majority is.

According to scientists, about 1% of the human population is not. So, yes, the majority is. (But one percent is still quite a few--more than they expected, actually.)

I'm asexual, so I think I know exactly what you mean. It's a really annoying habit a lot of people have of injecting sexual stuff into situations where it doesn't exist. I mean, there are a lot of people I admire, and I wouldn't want to have sex with any of them. I've had a sort of "platonic infatuation" with fictional characters before--that is, I love to read about them and find them fascinating in a completely non-sexual way. And just because I say I think someone is good-looking, that doesn't mean I'm attracted to them. You know?

LOL, I know what you mean. I often talk about my favorite cartoon shows with a friend, and if I make a comment like, "I really like that guy," she does that eyebrow-raising thing and says something like, "I know. Isn't he hot?" O__o Can't I just like the character? Haha!

I do admit that I have crushes on a few characters... But I always like characters more based on their personality than their looks.

Canvassing the Internet: Platonic Admiration

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