Disney vs Pixar - the Fanfic Faceoff

[tealin]

It occurred to me while visiting California Adventure (soon to be Pixarland*) that despite Pixar's modus operandi of 'creating worlds,' my imagination is never tempted to explore them outside the confines of the film, whereas I often find myself mentally wandering the possibilities of Disney worlds. The only explanation I could come up with is that Pixar movies are more self-contained ... everything in them was created for them; nothing exists that does not relate to the plot or characters; everything is explained and there are no loose ends. It's a very tidy way to make a movie but it doesn't give much room to play – it feels like the movie is shot on a sound stage rather than on location, that if you wandered past the end of the street that is visible in the establishing shot, you'd either meet a blank concrete wall or ... nothing. I don't wonder about the rest of the characters' lives, or 'what would happen if...', or how their society works or anything, because everything I need to know is spelled out for me and nothing further is hinted at, which squashes all curiosity I might have. And for all that the world is painstakingly created I never wish I could just go there to hang out – it's a closed-off room that exists for the purpose of the movie and the movie alone; it doesn't have any doors.** So I wondered: am I the only one? Is your imagination piqued by Pixar movies as much as Disney? I did a brief and extremely unscientific survey of fanfiction.net and the fic tallies for Disney and Pixar movies seem to prove that I am speaking out of my butt, but I cannot recall one Pixar character that, for example, has a squeeing fangirl following. Have you experienced Pixar fandom online? Is it as fruitful or pervasive as the Disney fandoms I followed for a while before running away screaming? What are your thoughts/observations/comments/suggestions/snarkings? Is it better to make a beautiful, clean, perfectly-wrapped up origami of a movie, or leave some loose ends and cracks that the imagination can crawl into?

ETA: I ought to set Incredibles a little bit aside from the Pixar pantheon – it's really much more of a Brad Bird movie than a Pixar movie, and he's the only one to my knowledge who can stand up to Lasseter and get away with it. He directed Ratatouille too, but it was someone else's project that he took over.

ETA2: This seems as good a time as any to point out one of my favourite Daily Show clips ever ... Forks!

*Not officially. But basically ... yeah.
**with the exception of Monsters, Inc which has a lot of doors (literally) ... but none of them open into my head (figuratively)

Comments

[dejablue7.livejournal.com]

California Adventure (soon to be Pixarland)
-Huh, really? From what I'd heard (though admittedly, I'm not paying enormous attention to theme park news) I thought they were going to renovate the whole front of the park to pay tribute to 1920s-30s-ish Walt Disney?

-I'd agree that there's something magical and fruitful-to-the-imagination-esque about the simplicity (well, seeming simplicity in a lot of cases, I'd argue) of the Disney films. Pixar spells everything out for you (or at least tries very hard to...down to the marbles on the race track, really Pixar, really?), whereas Disney seems to take the essence of characters and stories and draw them out for you in caricatured and fantastical ways--but also in a way that leaves plenty of room for the viewer to place themselves in the situation, sympathize, imagine. (Biggest example: what girl hasn't imagined herself as a Disney princess as a small child, etc.)

Come to think of it, actually, Little Mermaid comes to mind as a film that really hints at a wider, gorgeously fantastical world without spelling things out too much--I'm thinking of Atlantica, and the town outside of Eric's castle...they're settings that make you want to go there yourself...

Personally, I've never left any of the Pixar films with that sense of pure magic that the classic Disney films left me with...though, admittedly, Toy Story 1 absolutely floored me upon a recent rewatch. My gosh, what a glorious film. The best of the Pixar line, in my opinion.

it feels like the movie is shot on a sound stage rather than on location, that if you wandered past the end of the street that is visible in the establishing shot, you'd either meet a blank concrete wall or ... nothing.
That's a very interesting observation. I'd say I'd have to agree with you on that one too.

[fishbulb33.livejournal.com]

You definitely haven't seen the Incredibles fandom, then. I can easily imagine stuff about those characters and their world, and I've seen a big following with all sorts of fanart and fanfic based around that film.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

I think some of it is also Pixar's habit of creating worlds that don't conform to logic, even internally. I mean, look at Toy Story -- moving toys, how the fuck does that work? It doesn't. But you suspend your disbelief because it's engaging and funny and a great story. Same with Cars. How the hell did those stadiums get built? What purpose do cow tractors serve? But I don't care because the cow-tractor tipping scene still puts me on the floor. Wall-E, don't get me started on how plants can't survive in space. :D

The thing is, that suspension-of-disbelief does make it hard to go any further with the story, because in order to -- say -- write fanfic, you have to comprehend at least some of the laws that govern the world you're writing in. And there just aren't any.

Part of it may have to do with most of the Pixar characters being nonhuman, which makes it hard for us to relate; when they are humanish, like in Toy Story, there are also Real Humans who are seen as a sort of enemy. And there are more older fans of The Incredibles than of other films, yes? Plus a lot of fannishness in re: Disney films comes from us having seen them as kids. I'm betting there will be a revival of Classic Pixar fandom in about fifteen years, when the kids that Pixar's films are primarily aimed at are in their twenties.

Animated films in general don't tend to pique my interest in the same fashion that television drama and live-action films do, mainly because animated films in America are usually aimed primarily, though not completely, at young audiences. I like Pixar films (Wall-E notwithstanding) and I like watching animated films in general, but I engage with them on a fannish level more over their aesthetics -- the design, the beauty of the visual -- than because of the story. I want a good story and I won't accept a bad one, but I'll enjoy a good story told beautifully as much as a great story with less aesthetic appeal.

LONG COMMENT IS LONG AND RAMBLY. Does any of this make sense?

[ultra-taboo.livejournal.com]

I often wished I could see a bit more into the whole superhero history in the Incredibles. I think there's a lot of room for imagination with that film...

Maybe Monster's Inc too a little bit, to the point of making your own Monster creations

[pandoras-closet.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a fanficer, not really. Incredibles I've got maybe one idea, two if you count the crossover with Danny Phantom, but that's it. If I pushed, I could probably fanfic Cars, I've seen some Wall-E fanfic that was okay, and I've never had any interest in Toy Story.

Like the other commentors have said. Pixar tends to spell out everythng and nail down all the loose threads. Everything else is just so surreal (I.e. Who built the stadiums in Cars), you block it out.

To me, fanfic is about the what ifs and the untolds. Something about Pixar precludes the former for me, and has very little of the latter.

[jesskat.livejournal.com]

I don't dabble in fan fic, so I have as little interest in exploring the boundaries of Disney films as I do with Pixar films. I have to say though that I felt The Incredibles was the only Pixar movie (besides Toy Story, perhaps) that deserved to have a sequel, and hasn't gotten one yet while Cars 2 and Monsters Inc. 2 are already in the works, two movies that I felt would have stood perfectly well on their own without continuation. The Incredibles had interesting characters that offered possibilities for multiple stories, so that's one Pixar movie that, were I a fan fic author, might inspire me to create my own sequels. The only Disney movie besides The Lion King that inspired me to consider writing fan fic based on it was Atlantis.

I think the reason Pixar characters have less squeeing fangirls is because so far they've only made one picture with a full human cast - the aforementioned Incredibles. (Ratatouille's cast was 50% rats, 50% humans.) Also keep in mind that Pixar has, what, 10 movies behind them now against something close to 50 (animated) from Disney's side? Most of Disney's movies are adaptations of old fairytales which itself creates all sorts of conflicts, contradictions and loose ends when on the one hand you're trying to respect your source material yet keep it entertaining for the masses. Take The Little Mermaid, for example. In the original tale, the prince marries the wrong girl but is apparently happy with her, the mermaid dies and turns into sea foam - not much left to explore. Disney turns the ending into a happy one, allowing viewers to wonder what happens to Ariel and Eric now that they're married and Ariel has a whole new human existence to look forward to. On the other hand, I haven't seen much fan fic for Disney's latest original efforts, like Chicken Little (even that is very loosely based on an old story, but the title's pretty much the only thing that's left) or Home on the Range.

I don't know about the general public, but to me the most impressive thing about Disney isn't necessarily their stories, but the beautiful traditional animation. Sometimes just looking at a character is inspiring. Whereas a CG character, no matter how well animated, never quite gets me "hooked" the same way. They may make me feel the emotions the story needs to convey, but I think that's mostly a combination of all the elements: music, build-up, lighting plus animation. With hand-drawn Disney, sometimes all it takes is a crude, unfinished pencil test animation. That's the magic that gets me hooked on some of the characters they've created. If/when Pixar starts doing their own 2D animation, I wouldn't be surprised if I started fangirling their characters more.

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

The front of the park, yes, and they're turning the sort of carnival area into much more of an early-20th-century amusement park, which I am 100% in favour of, especially if it means whimsical contraptions and coin-operated stereoscopes like in the Musée Mechanique (I am such a stereoscope whore, it's stupid). But they've already got Bugs Land (dunno what else to call it) and the Monsters Inc ride, have just opened Toy Story Midway Mania, and are building Cars Land. There'll also be a Fantasmic-ish water and light show which will feature lots of Pixar movies. Seeing these plans (they have a display at the park) made me think ... I couldn't come up with any ideas for rides or attractions based on Pixar movies, nor were there any locations I wish they'd build so I could pretend I was in them.

Pixar movies are absolutely a pinnacle of craftsmanship, they just (ironically, perhaps) don't cater much to the imagination.

[dejablue7.livejournal.com]

Oh, undoubtably they're top notch in craftsmanship.

"Bugs Land"...lol, that sounds so silly XD

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

It's actually pretty cleverly done, but obviously aimed more at the wee ones, unless you have an interest in horticulture.

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you make sense, and the making sense amuses me because the Pixar people take such pride in their thoroughly-imagined universes with their rules and their logic.

I have to disagree with you on the nostalgia aspect, at least in my experience; the fandoms I remember were related to contemporary movies, starting with Hunchback and going through to about Mulan before I ran away. I know Lion King had a HUGE following and that was even before most people had the internet; once fans started making their own websites, Lion King ones cropped up like mushrooms, and it hadn't come out that long before. And there's not one human in Lion King. I don't think the species of the character really has all that much play, as long as they have a human brain. I mean, they're drawings first and foremost, the fact that we're relating to them at all kind of throws anything else into perspective. Half the girls I know had some degree of crush on Robin Hood at some point in their lives ... granted these are girls working at Disney, but it's got to be an indicator of something.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

I was a huge Lion King fanboy, this much is true. :D

The girls working at Disney though, look at how old they were when they saw Robin Hood -- it came out in what, the seventies? So we were all children when we saw it. I think I was twelve or thirteen when Lion King came out, still young enough that the movie sort of...belonged to me. As a matter of fact I think Lion King was actually the last animated Disney film I intentionally went to see. I've still not seen Hunchback or Mulan or most of the ones that came after it, and then picked up Pixar in my twenties.

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

Most of the girls I talk to are in my generation so would have seen Robin Hood on video in the 80s or early 90s – when they were young, yes, but my point with him was more in regards to attachment to an animal character rather than the nostalgia aspect. And (without giving away too much, I hope) there's a character in Frog that has won the heart of most of the girls on the crew, all of whom are over 21. Younger fans are probably more likely to conglomerate for squeefests and older fans might get turned off by this, but there still are older fans ...

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

But he was still an anthropomorphic animal -- a basically human shape, human eyes, human clothes. It's why the film is super-popular in the Furry community, not to ruin you for Robin Hood forever :D I would venture to say ditto on this concept as to why Rats of NIMH is still a beloved icon in our age group as well (plus it was way darker than most kids' films).

I do see your point though. I just feel like...none of the stories have really belonged to me, even the Pixar ones, since Lion King; I can enjoy them but they're not my cultural property. I wish there were mature animated films that I felt I could own, because of complex adult-oriented scripts, but most of them elude me storywise entirely -- the only animation I've ever written fanfic for has been the Ouran tv series, because I can actually interact with a sensible plot, even if it's a parody. :D And the logical premise is thin, but it's still there; the Ouran students exist in a relatively logical setting. Though I feel that if I'd seen more Avatar than just S1 I could write fic for that too.

I suppose I feel like it's hard for me to be a fan in the usual way because I'm disconnected from the story by the sense that it's not for me and I have no nostalgic connection.

But I'm looking forward to Frog!

[yaytime.livejournal.com]

Good points about the difference in world building. Never even thought about it like that.

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

I don't feel the fanish urge about Disney movies either but I tend to like Disney movies a lot better. The only Pixar movie I really liked was Ratatouille. I never saw Cars and I think I only saw part of A Bug's Life, on a plane or something, but I didn't like the others that much. They were fun to watch but the story wasn't engaging at all. The entire appeal was "ooh, look at the pretty visuals." The only Disney movie I've seen that's been like that for me was Lilo and Stitch - I really disliked the story of that, it was so depressing. But it was pretty and I liked the music.

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

Oh! Will there still be Soarin' Over California or a similar ride? That's just about the only ride my mum likes.

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

As far as I know that's staying... it's one of the most popular ones there (or at least it has the longest lines).

[raddishh.livejournal.com]

Ah, I was going to say Syndrome, but you sort of squashed that.

I think the only world I could imagine (although granted, I do NOT want to go there) was Wall-E's. And frankly, Up looks like it has possibilities.
I feel like, for the most part though, Pixar keeps settings more grounded in the real world and simply proposes that some people/things aren't what you think they are though they still inhabit the same world. Toy Story- same world as ours, but toys don't act the way we think they do. Finding Nemo- same world, fish act differently. Incredibles- same world, but some people have powers. Pixar keeps the identity of the world pretty stable (although Wall-E is an exception) and then changes one aspect of life. At least, that's how I see it.

I mean, even Cars is still OUR world; it's just inhabited by cars rather than people (and as much as I love this movie, every time I back away just to look at the concept... it is kind of creepy).

Personally, I don't always want one or the other. I like completely wrapped up stories and I like stories with loose ends. I wouldn't say that there is an end-all-be-all way to perfectly tell a story; that defeats the purpose of a story!

[uberklutz.livejournal.com]

1) sad that California Adventure is going to be taken over :(
2) Yes, now that you mention it, with the exception of the Incredibles and Ratatouille, I do not explore Pixar's worlds. Indeed though, the Incredibles does posses the sanitized boxed-up-world approach that's hard to take with you. For me the characters were more dimensional and available for exploration. Perhaps the placement of Ratatouille in a well-known place as Paris made it more accessible.
3) ... Forks?! lol I also highly approve of the new Donald Duck design.

[uberklutz.livejournal.com]

oh that ride is TOTALLY WORTH IT.

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

I must have been on it on a bad day ... I swear whenever there were supposed to be enhanching odours they all smelled uniformly of cough drops.

Which, you know, works for the eucalyptus plantations around San Diego, but not so much the pine forests or ocean spray or what have you.

[fani.livejournal.com]

I've only imagined stuff happening to The Incredibles family so far. Thing is, the world looks "livable" , and it feels like it has a history to it if that makes sense. I mean, I notice most fanfics usually explore (aside from the plot holes) , the world the characters actually live in.

Mind you, I rarely have "I wonder..." moments with Disney/Pixar movies. It's just there's always the happily ever after implications meaning the world will stop functioning after.

The other reason why you have a hard time to find Pixar fanfics is because they're lumped in with Disney in FF.net. :|

[twirlynoodle.livejournal.com]

I was looking by movie title. Just to get a rough idea of what attracted people's imaginations. Generally they were tit for tat except for Lion King (1,000+) ... High School Musical had an obscene amount but I suppose that's to be expected.

[wizardelfgirl.livejournal.com]

I must admit that The Lion King was what brought me into fandom. I bumped into a fanfic by accident and really liked it, and through it I discovered ffnet and all.

Anyway, I once wondered why so many stories could be made of TLK, and this led me to realize that what I liked of TLK and Disney movies in general was the characters. Disney charas, in my opinion, were fully developed and had a heart, a soul, and a personality. The plot of the movie is just an excuse for these characters to show who they are (this more or less applies to other fandoms I like such as Harry Potter or TMNT, in which the charas are well developed and have potential for infinite stories... at least until JKR ruined the HP saga for me by sacrificing the best charas so that the trio could shine, but I digress).

Pixar's charas are charismatic and full of heart, but they have obviously been created for the sole purpose of serving the plot of the movie. They cannot exist outside that world, therefore there's less "room" for fanfic writers to play. That doestn't mean you can't pull some good stories out of Pixar movies, but the restrictions are tighter than with Disney charas.

This doesn't mean I find Pixar's films less endearing -- Ratatouille and Wall-e remain as my two favourite-- but I don't see any of these films, say, turning into a TV show like other films... except maybe the Incredibles (which I agree should be set aside, as the style is quite different from other Pixar films) or perhaps even Monsters Inc.

[pippins-nose.livejournal.com]

For my part, I am pretty much a screaming, squeeing, Pixar fangirl. Everything they do turns me into a puddle of goo (with the exception of "The Incredibles," which I just really really liked.) I don't know anything about fandoms of their movies... though I guess I did love Flick in a highly fangirlish way when I was a little girl. Even though he was an ant :P

I guess for me, neither Pixar nor Disney movies make me wonder much about what's left as a "loose end," or what happened before/after/during that one time. I just love them while I'm watching them. That is to say... I can't imagine reading or writing fanfiction about "Toy Story" or "Monsters Inc" any more than I can "Aladdin" or "The Lion King."

...However, I am aware that other people can, and do XD

[cornedbee.livejournal.com]

Many good points here.

I've written (well ... started) a fan fic for Lion King once - nothing original, just what Nala experiences while Simba is away. I can't see myself writing fan fic for any other Disney movie, even though I love nearly all of them.

With Pixar, I could see myself writing stuff in the Incredibles universe (oh, I love that movie), but not really anywhere else.

For me, fan fiction is about loose ends. Harry Potter is extremely rich in loose ends, or things that could easily have turned out differently. There's an endless amount of plot bunnies available for this story. For most Pixar films, it's not that way. (Also, I'm far less inspired by movies than books in general.) There are no lose ends in most of these films - deviate from the path, and you usually get instant catastrophe. Try to change anything about A Bug's Life that results in a change that is not insignificant and that still lets the ants win in the end. It's hard.
The Lion King is full of possibilities. There's years in the pride unaccounted for. The movie finishes on a coronation, on a new era, but we don't hear anything about that new era. (Until the second movie came out, anyway.)
The other Disney movies? Many of them end with "prince marries girl", and I really can't see me continuing that.
I think one of the problems with Pixar films is that they are too neat.


By the way, what is NIMH?

OMG I GET TO GEEK OUT YAY!

[mellifluous-ink.livejournal.com]

I would agree with you--Disney creates incomplete worlds that have tantalising teases of a larger creation. Hercules, Beauty and the Beast and Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Nightmare Before Christmas too, while we're talking about Touchstone flicks) caught my muse's eye, and I built an entire backstory for Jessica and Roger, as well as designing a Hercules-style version of Hermaphroditos and I'm currently running like crazy around with BatB, deeply embroiled in an epic fanfic plot involving political intrigue and the Folk and... (blushes) Sorry, I'll stop.

As much as I love The Incredibles, I can't think of a thing to do with it, unless dimensional crossover is involved. I was briefly involved with a House of Mouse/Kingdom Hearts-style Disney RPG, and there was interaction between Maestro Forte and Syndrome that was promising. Syndrome acts like a Disney villain, and I would love to figure a plot for him involving his trying to get into the 'council' of Disney Villains (of whom Maleficent is the head, of course). Also, the 'cracky' pairing of Forte/Syndrome would be so much fun.

Pixar leaves a bad taste in my mouth now, because I think they're getting too 'socio-political commentary' with their films, and it just feels kinda wankery.

[beckychan.livejournal.com]

I was gonna point out that I've sin some pretty heavy duty Incredibles fans, but you've already ETAd that.