And that Hist'ry, it goes Round and Round...

[tealin]

Islamic 'Calvinism'? (BBC article)

"Making money is a sign of God's approval, and this is also similar to what Weber said about the Calvinists."
And also the Victorians and their Social Darwinism, a belief that persists (sometimes disguised) in conservative Christian America (whose religious constituents are largely Calvinist in origin or philosophy) – see? Girard is right: mimetic rivals appear to grow more and more different but actually become more and more the same. You've got a lot in common! Put down those rockets and have a potluck!

Yeah, I don't know nearly enough history or theology to make a valid argument. But I try. Madly flailing in waters way, way out of my depth.

Comments

[fryingpanofdoom.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's a common human trait to rationalize that grasping avariciousness is a God's will. As far as I know, it's not part of either theology, yet was also apparent at various times in Catholic history.
People are people everywhere.

[disneyboy.livejournal.com]

Hey - at least you try. And even not knowing much about the religious and/or social movements you're referencing, I think you're explaining yourself well enough for me to say that, I agree! I personally am made crazy when religious people try to tie wealth or success to righteousness (like certain people who intimated that everybody in New Orleans deserved to die, or at least lose everything)- I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive (hard work, persistence, and thrift can pay off, and there are noteable examples of rich/powerful philanthropists). But it ignores, in my mind, so many scriptures to the contrary, and countless examples, throughout history, of people that profited through exploitation and sheer unbridled ambition and greed, and even if righteousness initially got them some success, how money and power tend to corrrupt the soul rather than soften it.
I don't know if this is at all related to your point, but yesterday I caught the tail end of an NPR program, "Speaking of Faith", interviewing a Jewish author in Israel who mourned the wall that was being built , because it represented the failure of his life's work, to bring Israelis and Palestinians together, while simultaneously being glad that his teenage daughters (who frequent the buses and clubs and cafes that the suicide bombers ALSO frequent) will be more safe now...he made some comments about how the Palestinian leadership totally wasted the opportunity that Oslo presented, and I don't know enough about the details to know if the deal was fair to Arafat or not, but the thing that he said that really resonated with me was about the cartoons... you know, THE infamous cartoons, about how these cartoons did NOT come from Israel (despite the fact that hideously offensive cartoons about Jews are published throughout much of the Arab world all the time) or from America, BECAUSE, unlike much of the European press, depsite our anger and fear of the extremists, many of us have a basic understanding and respect for religion and religious belief - we understand how much good can come from Islam in its pure form, and how offensive it is when someone denies the validity or importance of a religious belief, merely because they can. The idea that, at least in this respect, we actually have more in common with the arab world than with our "enlightened" European allies - and the idea that those Europeans who look the other way or cower in fear when Hamas and other extremist organizations pervert and defame their religion through their monstrous actions and the ones that defiantly champion thier right to snub Islam, however humorously or seemingly innocently, in the name of free speech are united in their lack of understanding or respect for religious belief (they cannot disassociate the fundamentals of the faith from the fundamentalists)- this blew my mind. Yes! He posited that, as a fellow believer in God, he championed the right of all faithful Muslims to be offended by the publishing of the cartoons, while openly blasting Hamas and the other terrorsits groups, as well as the government-sanctioned bigotry (through publishing offensive cartoons), because he takes them and their faith seriously.
An embarrisingly obvious thought has just BARELY occured to me...Maybe I should stop clogging your 'blog with all MY crap and save my interminable posts for MY 'blog and the people who theoretically actually came to listen to me instead of you in YOUR 'BLOG - then, if people STILL ignore me, I'll actually have a GOOD reason to feel hurt and unloved! Good grief, I'm embarrased. Except that I knew I'd get a wider audience for my pleas for attention in a COOL 'blog like yours...but how big of a hint do I need?

[veronikamg.livejournal.com]

Oh dear... Europeans and our freedom of speech... See, in Europe we are allowed to say anything no matter how cruel, disrespectful or shocking it may seem to others. This right usually always go before everything, because free speech was the free Europe's weapon against Hitler's propaganda and later against the communist censorship. Compared to Europe, the US has always been a peaceful place where ideas such as respect and understanding grew in a different direction. The US has always (before) been a unity, while Eurpoe has been divided into fragments since the beginning of civilization. We have never agreed, and thus the right to speak your opinion became so important. The people in power always tried to keep people ignorant and censor the truth, but in the end it always failed. Throughout the history of Europe you hear about people who would not be kept silent, and who went against everything that was concidered above questioning; their king, their church, their law. The idea of being free to say whatever you feel like saying is as strong in the Europeans as the idea of being independent is in the Americans. Unfortuantely, though, that give the people oportunity of saying truly horrible things without being punished for it. And don't think that people are not saying terrible things about Europeans as well! Our values and traditions are being questioned and critizised all the time.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that it is right to say what you think all the time, especially if you know that what you are about to say will cause more harm than good.

Also keep in mind that the Northern European mentality is very different from the American. Things that are unacceptable to us are perfectly fine with you, and vice versa. Many of my American internet friends are shocked when I tell them that in Scandinavian family films it is very common to show naked people of all ages. When I was a little kid I saw an authentic birth on a childrens program, and books for priamry school often have pictures that would have the publishers thrown in prison in the US. Maybe we are monsters. But what would never happen here, and according to my friend it is acceptable at least where she lives (Nebraska), is tiny children being allowed to watch violent flics at the cinema with daddy.

I'm gonna stop here before somebody gets really mad with me. (But as an European I will stand for what I have said! :) )

validation for a fragile, preening drama queen - at last!

[disneyboy.livejournal.com]

Veronika, can I tell you, after pouring my heart out here, time and time again to the chirping of crickets, how thrilling it is to have someone - anyone - REACT to something I said?? Do you know how great it would be if someone was inflamed enough by my words to pick a FIGHT with me??! YAAAAY! I was afraid, even as I was typing the above comment, someone would take offense, but MORE afraid that nobody would even notice! Look, I realize that I don't say really interesting or provocative things most of the time, that I overwhelm/bore people by saying WAY too much, that I usually join the conversation way too late, and that it's up to ME to stop whining and just say things more worthy of agreement or debate - I know I generally deserve polite indifference, but that doesn't make it feel any better!(I guess I know how a lot of other people feel now, huh?)
Anyway, you make some very valid points. I mean, the fact that we're even having this conversation shows how valuable free expression is to both of us. I certainly don't think that you or most Northern Europeans are monsters! And, boy, the pervasiveness of violence in our popular media - I know a guy with 4 little kids - really nice, fervently religious, intelligent-seeming guy, mind you - who took his four little kids, aged 1 to 4 or 5 to see KING KONG!!! I see this kind of thing all the time! IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!! ARE THESE PEOPLE ALL INSANE??? - well, you can tell it's a big pet peeve of mine. I can't really disagree with much of what you've said - you've done a good job of presenting the Northern European perspective - I just wish that more people could see the difference between bravely speaking out against intolerance, cruelty, opression, etc., and publicly taking potshots at someone's cherished religious beliefs that one deems silly and meaningless (but basically harmless) for no other purpose than to create controversy, even if there wasn't the danger of inciting violence. Freedom - compassion and/or respect for others = ...something not very desirable at best (feel free to fill in the blank). I guess I'm also used to the idea that there are appropriate forums to say whatever you want freely and safely, and other times and places when it is inappropriate (or at least unwise). For whatever it's worth. Anyway Europe is still pretty cool, IMHO.

[magpieinthesky.livejournal.com]

Basically, a part of Weber's ideology is that things that the idea producers (ie scientists, theologians, and others) say will inevitably get mixed up by the general populace - not necessarily because they do it on purpose, rather because they're in a completely different situation socially, economically, whatever from those who spread the ideas. For example with the Calvinists: the theologians said that God doesn't give signs as to whether you're saved or not, and the people in the pews kind of argued back - they wanted to believe that wealth was a sign of being saved. Let that idea snowball for a while, and you've got the meritocracy of America and a not very sympathetic attitude to the poor. And by that time, it's a less conscious view of faith, rather it's just something ingrained in society no matter what faith you are... and that's where Islamic Calvinism among other religions' twists are coming from.

whatever man's burden

[http://users.livejournal.com/_etaoinshrdlu/]

the concept of social darwinism is definitely still around; it never went away & it's not just with certain groups either. it has permeated into the intellects of culture. fun stuff.

Like in politics . . .

[noodledaddy.livejournal.com]

It is a belief in political science that instead of a bar the runs horizontally, with the left on their end and the right on theirs, the shape is more like a horseshoe, with the ends becoming closer together. Like a bell curve, however, the number at the ends of the wings are, thankfully, low.

A²

[pippins-nose.livejournal.com]

Flailing or no, more potlucks would make the world a better place.

[disneyboy.livejournal.com]

hear hear!