On Villainy

Jan. 6th, 2009 10:04 pm
tealin: (catharsis)
[personal profile] tealin
I've been meaning to post this since last summer, when a comment thread fed a pebble into the rock-tumbler of my brain, but there was always something more important to do ... Well, I have a lump of unexpected free time so I am carpeing the diem.

WARNING: I do go on rather.


I've never been much of a one for villains. From my first foray into fandom I've puzzled at the villain fangirls, some of whom appeared to fawn over the bad guy out of a sense of obligation more than anything else (Frollo fangirls, with all due respect: what the crap?). So it was with no small amount of surprise that as the last year rolled along, I found myself drawn repeatedly to the darker end of the character spectrum, starting from the Herbert West stories, really kicking off with Sweeney Todd, through The Princess and the Frog and Rapunzel and peaking with Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog. How could this be? I have a fairly conservative moral code and certainly don't identify with those who rejoice in evil, so what was I connecting with?

Of all things, it was the Captain Hammer comic that made the breakthrough: villains are smart.

Now, I'm not saying all villains everywhere are smart, and there is a fundamental lack of observation skills necessary not to notice that evil is inevitably self-defeating, but bear with me for a moment.

I'm going to come at this mainly from the superhero mythos, because that is the most pervasive genre in American culture, both reflecting it and informing it in some sort of allegorical feedback loop, across all ages, in many different media, and its archetypes are the clearest and most caricatured. I am no great expert on superheroes, though, so please correct me or fill in holes in my knowledge where you feel I may be mistaken.

Heroes, generally, are physical. They have unusual strength, or some other sort of supernatural skill involving physicality; e.g. Wolverine's healing, Spiderman's spider skills, and just about everything about Superman. They win the day by being honest and true, fighting for love or justice, are straightforward, hardworking and resourceful – the ideal Americans. Villains often don't have superpowers, but they do have brains. Not only brains but scientific brains – I've never come across a novelist villain. They are called Doctor and Professor; they build mechanical devices or engineer chemicals to give them powers the heroes come by naturally (or supernaturally); they have intricate schemes and use mind games, deceit, and cunning to their advantage; they have an enlarged, sometimes visible brain, a small or weedy physique, and a massive scientific laboratory. They challenge the system and think outside the box, coming to their own conclusions on what is right or what a society should be rather than unquestioningly accepting the status quo. They use elevated language, sometimes alluding to classic literature, and frequently have English accents, which all Americans know is a sure sign of intellect.

The good/physical side and the bad/mental side are not always mutually exclusive, but look what happens to those who cross the line: intellectuals on the side of good are usually subservient to the heroes, relegated to engineering devices for them (Batman) or doing their research (Buffy). The physically powerful baddies are usually hired muscle for the villain, goons the heroes have to overcome before conquering evil. If you want to realize your full potential you have to pick your designated team.

I know that the origin for a lot of the mad scientists and evil professors stems from a crisis of conscience after the atom bomb, but that it's survived so long and, if anything, increased in intensity is intriguing. The pattern has only gotten clearer in recent years, with the glut of superhero movies. The nerdiest superhero, Spiderman, was stripped of the canon webshooters he scientifically engineered, and given organic ones instead. The Incredibles makes it abundantly clear that Syndrome relied on his cleverness to compensate for his lack of naturally endowed superpowers and get his revenge on the honest, good, true superheroes. The very fact that Patrick Warburton has such a successful voice acting career is an acknowledgment of the Big Dumb Hero. So, what is the nature of causality here? Is it all a permutation of the American distrust of intellectuals?* Or are superhero stories telling America that clever people are evil? I suspect it's more complicated, that they feed off each other, and the mores of one or both leech into other genres or cultures over time. Still, it's something to ponder.
*I find it an interesting topic, and posted on it here.



There is, traditionally, a place for the lying, cheating, devious and manipulative who still want to be on the positive side of the narrative divide: the trickster. Tricksters are found in most mythologies; you get the same traits in Raven, Coyote, Loki, Monkey, Brer Rabbit, and Anansi. They all lack physical prowess and find themselves up against vastly more powerful foes, where they must depend on their ingenuity to survive. The trickster has never really had a place in mainstream American culture,* at least not in a serious way – the Puritan values of hard work and honesty upon which the country was founded oppose their sort of behaviour, so they're usually relegated to comedy when they appear at all. The most iconic American trickster I can think of is Bugs Bunny, and I would not be surprised if his popularity is at least partly on account of his filling an archetypical hole in our contemporary mythology. The same goes for characters like Jack Sparrow and Bart Simpson. It's interesting that the superhero genre, and to a lesser degree many of the other stories American culture tells itself, more or less inverts the trickster tale, pitting a hero's strength and righteousness against the villain's guile.
*Addendum: [livejournal.com profile] spence137 pointed out Tom Sawyer. America has one!

It's understandable that the further a society moves away from its hunter-gatherer roots, the less need it has of tricksters, but America seems unusually barren even for Western culture. I don't know much about other European traditions but the echoes of Commedia dell'Arte, with its masked schemers, seem to reverberate into the present to some extent. When I was racking my brain for English-language tricksters I kept getting British ones: Moist von Lipwig, El-ahrairah, Sherlock Holmes, and Doctor Who; the latter two of whom are cultural touchstones. Perhaps I notice them because I'm slightly more in tune with British literature than American, but it might be related to their higher esteem of cleverness in general. The reason I'm focusing on American culture in particular with this is that it has become the single dominant force in Western culture as a whole, and its exported media is beginning to influence the media (and thereby culture) of countries far afield.


Something else to ponder is the trend recently towards telling the villain's tale. In recent years, we've seen V for Vendetta, Sweeney Todd, Dr Horrible, the Villains arc of the Heroes TV show, and Dexter, a series about a sociopathic serial killer. Above all, look at the amazing success of Wicked, both the book and the play, which has as its central character a well-established, culturally iconic villain. I pose a theory, and this is only a theory, which I present merely to mull over: in a world where Americans are daily reminded of Guantanamo, collateral damage, extraordinary rendition, the Patriot Act, wiretapping, and the loss of their romantic status as the plucky underdog, perhaps there is a collective (subconscious?) examination of conscience. What if we are the villain? Is it really so black and white? Is the villain such a bad thing to be, or is it just a matter of perspective? We aren't evil, we're just misunderstood ... right? The people who create the media are just the sort of liberally educated empaths who tend to see the world in shades of grey anyway; it's easy to imagine they should go from anxious hand-wringing to some sort of expression of doubt in the media they create. The Dark Knight is positively a psychotheraputic couch session on this subject: Batman says of himself: 'You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. I can do those things because I'm not a hero ... I killed those people. That's what I can be. I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be.' But that statement could just as easily be said of the nation as a whole, if you take Gotham to be The World. It's all an exploration of the difference between What A Hero Would Do and What Needs To Be Done in a world confronted by chaos and senseless destruction, and America ate it up. What does this mean? I don't know. Does it mean anything? The movie did have a tragic death associated with it, and for those who didn't care so much for Heath Ledger there were a lot of explosions and fight scenes and awesome vehicles with engines that went 'VROOM' so maybe I'm reading too much into its popularity. But it's something to think about nonetheless.

Anyway I don't know how to wrap this up so I shall take the cheap way out:

Date: 2009-01-07 05:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] themarinator.livejournal.com
Lovely, lovely, lovely post. I'd heard similar sentiments about the Dark Knight, but never expressed in such an insightful manner, and never wrapped in such a nice bow :) Thanks for posting.

Date: 2009-01-07 07:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
There was a really good interview/report on NPR the weekend before Christmas (I think) in which one of their regular reviewers discussed how the modern American psyche is reflected in films like The Dark Knight and Cloverfield. It was really interesting but I just tried searching for it and came up empty-handed, unfortunately. It was a male critic and female host, if you want to continue the quest ...

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Date: 2009-01-07 05:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spence137.livejournal.com
Re American Tricksters:

The first thing I thought of was Tom Sawyer (heck, Mark Twain is a sort of trickster of American folklore today). Even farther back there are the Brer Rabbit stories.

Date: 2009-01-07 05:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
Very good point. So America does have at least one iconic trickster ...

How mainstream was Brer Rabbit? I had gotten the impression that he was almost exclusively a Southern Black figure, and Song of the South has been hushed up long enough that I assumed most people wouldn't know his stories...

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Date: 2009-01-07 05:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rupertistheone.livejournal.com
Well I read the whole thing and I must say I enjoyed that little expose. I think you're right about the media paying for attention to villains now that we are sort of entering a darker time in our own values.

I also believe the success of the Dark Knight being eaten up was mostly because the death of Heath Ledger made our morbid little minds curious to see him in his post-mortem state.

Date: 2009-01-07 05:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
That's definitely a big part of it, too, and I meant to include it but forgot and then got distracted by looking for a pretty bow. Thanks for the reminder, I'll wedge it back in. :)

Date: 2009-01-07 06:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fani.livejournal.com
Very good essay. And yeah, why do most American villains even to this day are "misguided" scientists? Also: you had a conclusion but the bow is a nice touch ;p

for those who didn't care so much for Heath Ledger
OH LORD THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT. Mark Hamill is a better Joker. I'm not being unfair either. I haven't seen many of the Animated Series but I know that in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker his performance chilled me to the bones. Ledger's Joker barely scratched the surface.

there were a lot of explosions and fight scenes
BEST EXPLOSION-RIGGED movie EVER.

and awesome vehicles with engines that went 'VROOM'
that has bad design ethics.

Date: 2009-01-07 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
Um ... okay, I didn't mean it quite like that, I was referring rather to people who saw the movie for reasons other than his posthumous performance, but I'm totally behind you on Mark Hammill. The Nolan/Ledger Joker was an interesting take on the character but Mark Hammill (via Bruce Timm) IS the Joker.

Don't you dare insult the Batmobile in front of Art Center kids! They WORSHIP the Batmobile! (At least I think it's Art Center ... I know they watch Transformers daily.)

:D

Date: 2009-01-07 06:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lastimagination.livejournal.com
I just want to hug you right now. Brilliance. I'm too tired to discuss, but . . . :D

Date: 2009-01-07 08:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tawabids.livejournal.com
That was... fabulous to read. Although I almost got totally distracted when you accidentally introduced me to the Dr. Horrible Webcomic. Still, this post resonates with me very, very strongly, and I wish I could come up with some erudite reply, but you've wrapped it all up so nicely :3

I was just having a discussion with my Mum, not half an hour ago, about the reluctance from both the general public and governmental consciousness to fund science that doesn't have a clear, pre-determined benefit for either the country or the commercial sector. (That's in NZ at least, I don't know about the specifics of grant funded science in the US or UK). I've long believed that that reluctance is linked to the villain/scientist trope, even though I'd say it's impossible to prove. But the association between "villainy" -> "science for science's sake" is surely there, even if its actual influence of science funding is negligible. Or am I just bitter? I can't tell.

Date: 2009-01-08 07:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
The attitude towards government grants for scientists in the US boils town to two camps, as I see it. On the liberal side, science is neat, and funding it makes you look like a benevolent child of the enlightenment, but the widows and orphans and other feel-good causes will usually win the prize money in the end. On the conservative side, the opinion seems to be that scientists are greedy and self-interested, that they come up with spurious research projects to line their pockets with government money and their liberal/environmentalist/alarmist biases colour their research – and if they get their money from corporations rather than the uncooperative government, their results are skewed to reflect the interests of their benefactors. Neither of these opinions explicitly reflects 'scientist = evil' but there might be some sort of subconscious predisposition at play.

As for Canada, well, they'd like to fund science but the government can't afford anything and all their best scientists have moved to the States anyway. :)

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Date: 2009-01-07 08:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] demondogweed.livejournal.com
A lurker de-lurking here ^^''

Anyway, yeah, I've noticed those molds of heroes and villains too. And,as a villain fan, I have to add that I mostly like villains because of their character. Seems that heroes always HAVE to be good and fit into certain molds, while villains can be almost anything.

As for the cultural thing, let me give few points from my country, Finland. We here have interesting viewn on heroes and villains, mainly, nothing is black and white. Our national epic, Kalevala, has no clear good or bad. It's just bunch of people bickering, and the most known story of it telling about Sampo has the 'good' guys steal the sampo, thus breaking a contract they had with the 'bad guys'.

Also, in Finland, Donald Duck is seen as the real main character of disney stories. We literally have a magazine named after him, coming every week. And most finnish fans despise Mickey Mouse with passion. It is said that Mickey has no real flaws, and he always succeeds. While Donald has numerous flaws and more often than not, fails. And it seems most finnish people can't get heroes with no clear flaws, almost saying they are too 'perfect'.

Well, there's my few cents.

Date: 2009-01-08 07:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
I don't think Mickey Mouse is popular anywhere, really ... he's had all personality surgically removed. Unfortunately it seems that for the most part here in North America he's dragged his companions into consumer products prison.

Date: 2009-01-07 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pen37.livejournal.com
Oh boy! You're talking comics and stories now. *kracks knuckles* Okay, here's my take on things.

A large part of US culture pre Regan administration is a product of Cold War anxiety. Entertainment is a safe place to vent that anxiety, because it's fictional. If you look at movies from the sixties (when everyone was building bomb shelters) you see the disaster movies are all about how a giant mutated animal squashes Tokyo.

Post Regan, the movies seem to be disaster films. Tornados, earthquakes. That's global warming anxiety.

The unifying theme of all this is that science - hand in hand with government - led us here, so you can't trust it, or them.

Growing out of that is the antihero, who in my mind is different from the trickster in one important way: the trickster's function is to knock someone down who is "getting too big for their britches" (In other words, trying to change the status quo when it only benefits themselves). The Antihero is someone who is resisting a status quo that has already changed for the worse. And the hero is someone who props up the status quo when it's good.

I'll get back to this point. First I want to talk about the smart hero for the sake of storytelling.

I think a large reason that it's hard to have a smart hero is that once you do, you create the delimma of "if you're so smart, why aren't you solving all our problems?" (the Reed Richards is useless issue). Bascally it's this: when you have a smart hero in a fictional society modeled after our own, why isn't the smart hero doing things for the betterment of society? Why isn't he solving cancer instead of wasting his time fighting the bad guy?

There have been plenty of smart heroes when the story leaves room for heroes to be smart. Professor Xavier is the leader of the X-Men, but only because he's a mutant and any attempts he might make to contribute to society are hindered by that status. Sam Winchester is smart, but only because he operates as a trickster himself.

Chloe Sullivan, Chloe O'Brian and Abby Sciuto are all allowed to be smart, but they work more in a support role secondary to teenage Clark Kent, Jack Bauer and Gibbs' NCIS team respectively. (I think you made a point about researchers being subserviant. But I look at it more as the story leaving room for brains. If you want to look at Brawny villians, look at the Uncanny Juggarnaut.)

Back to the subject of heroes, antiheroes,and tricksters. I think we like our paladin stories just as much as we like our trickster and antihero stories. They just seem to go in cycles. Superman has been topical through most of this decade, when prior to that it was Batman people seemed to prefer. Now we're watching the pendelum swing the other way.

I think that when we try to tarnish our paladins we only succede in making them less in our own eyes. (A large part of the reason that the last superman flopped was that in an attempt to make him more "relavant," they basically had him sleep with Lois, wipe her memories and then run away for several years, only to come back and find that she'd had a baby. No one really wanted to see that, as was evidenced in the way the movie flopped.)

My conclusion: Sometimes when doing the right thing requires and act of piracy, we want to watch the pirate. But when Superman isn't doing the right thing, we don't want to see it.

Date: 2009-01-07 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] taipa.livejournal.com
"villains are smart."

Yes.
And smart is sexy.

Sometimes Smart is on the side of Good, but you're right in your essay here.
Though had such a crush on the cartoon Egon from The Real Ghostbusters in the 80s.

While I'd hate to be called a villain fangirl, I'll quite often end up on the side of the villain, if it's a good well-written villain, with proper motivation, and not just OMG EVIL FOR THE SAKE OF EVIL LAWLS

Date: 2009-01-07 05:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tony-cliff.livejournal.com
I have frequently been surprised by items in your posts, but none moreso than the idea of "Frollo fangirls".

Date: 2009-01-07 05:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
No more surprised than I was, I assure you.

Date: 2009-01-07 09:49 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
This post made my day. Be proud. Now I shall share my opinions.

It seems to me that a lot of the villians which have become quite popular lately have become so because viewers can identify with their objectives. Doctor Horrible is, at heart, a decent man who wants to overthrow a system in order to help those that the system doesn't protect. Sweeney Todd is a man who is seeking vengeance for a terrible wrong done to him and his family by a decidedly villianous man. (Although this righteous crusade does degenerate into a sort of day-to-day villainy for villainy's sake. Mmm, human pie) The Joker, as portrayed by Heath Ledger, carries out random acts of violence, larceny, and mayhem as a way of demonstrating to people how badly the system is actually functioning. He smashes the gears to show us that the machine is already broken. Or he's just a demented clown. Or both.

I have not yet read Herbert West-Reanimator, but thanks to you, I will as soon as I can get to the library (providing the Lovecraft anthology isn't checked out)

Date: 2009-01-08 08:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
Oh absolutely – you can't make an otherwise villainous character the protagonist of a story without making him a character the audience can sympathise with. My point is that they're even thinking of making erstwhile villains the protagonists at all. Sweeney Todd and Dr Horrible do follow startlingly similar arcs; both have a primary objective of love but their secondary objective takes over and ends up thwarting their primary one. Another post I've been meaning to make is pointing out how similar both their 'happy working songs' are, both in internal structure and their place in the character arc, but that's so far down on my list of priorities that I doubt it'll ever see the light of day.

I never really saw the Joker's actions as a means of exposing a broken system; I thought they were more like exceptionally brutal performance art. 'I challenge your perspective of society and human nature!' I suppose it could be two sides of the same coin, though ...

Herbert West isn't nearly as sympathetic as Dr Horrible or Sweeney (Lovecraft is not exactly the best at character development, though West is probably one of his better-drawn) but I identify with his monomania and cold scientific demeanour. I hope you enjoy his series, though – they're my favourite of the Lovecraft oeuvre on account of the plot being driven by the character rather than distant, ancient, unseen forces as in most of his stories.

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Date: 2009-01-08 12:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] auraesque.livejournal.com
Great entry. Thank you for the read.

Long-winded Post!

Date: 2009-01-08 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] uberklutz.livejournal.com
Very, very thought-provoking post. It came as a shock to realize that the "Incredibles" almost completely vilified intelligence and put a focus on inherent super qualities. BUT! I guess the "moral" of the story is that smart people are just as good as Super Heroes. (Mr. Incredible realizes he should have treated Syndrome with respect.) It's a very interesting movie in that it explores good vs. evil in many ways: one being that the children have teenage angst about being "special just like everyone else." Perhaps I am just pooping out my mouth.

In my next bit I cannot avoid politics, though I'll try...
AMERICA AS TRICKSTERS: I wonder if in some way the apparent lack of a permanent fixture of Trickster Folklore is somehow linked to the fact that much of the US's success has been from *being* Tricksters? We are a Trickster nation? Our policies, economy, and diplomacy usually has some basis in being sly and wily. Someone's comment also mentioned that the Trickster acts as a field-evener. Could it be far-fetched to link this to Democracy? Cut big-britches down to size to even the playing field? ... blah. (but now we *are* the big-britches! And so we implode)
AMERICA vs. SMART PEOPLE: There was an almost terrifying point in the election campaigns where intelligent people were vilified for the goals of a party. They are untrustworthy, and will easily talk above the head of the "average Joe!" (DIES INSIDE) America has always complained that our young students are not up to par with the rest of the world in terms of Science, Medicine, Engineering, and Math. We view many other parts of the world as excelling in these fields, and these places usually don't agree with American politics--even though we often recruit their prize pupils for our prestigious institutions... Different = Scary, and they are infiltrating our system! (some might think.) And then comes along No Child Left Behind. I think I could almost just leave that there to sit. The FAIL that is No Child Left Behind. There are many conspiracy theories that float around the stench of that Act, and I'm not trying to sell them, but the Act has been instituted for many years now and most educators scream for its demise... and yet... it remains. *face palm* Of course, I also come to this from a musician's angle, but I think that success of all school subjects are strongly linked. Perhaps all this will change with the new administration, and hopefully for the better.
(ends poorly organized entry)

Re: Long-winded Post!

Date: 2009-01-08 08:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fani.livejournal.com
No Child Left Behind.

What...exactly does this program mean? I keep on thinking of kids missing the schoolbus and crying.

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Date: 2009-01-08 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aspectabund.livejournal.com
I liked this post. It's almost certainly due to the current mental climate - people are starting to realize things like, "Wait, they killed a couple thousand of us with a couple of planes... so it's okay for us to kill several hundred thousand of them? And they'll understand completely and thank us on bended knee and want to be our friends?"

I think, right now, we want to think that it's okay to be bad guys, because bad guys are just like everyone else, really. They're good guys on the other side. And, from movies like Iron Man, we want to feel secure in the knowledge that, if we are being bad, that's fine, because we can redeem ourselves. As long as you realize your flaws and correct them, you're fine... right?

Its not just in movies, either. After Marvel's Civil War, superheroes were effectively split on one side or the other: either you're a registered superhero working for the government, or you're an unregistered vigilante. Obviously the vigilantes include superheroes that still want to do good but see no reason to reveal their identities. Spiderman, Spiderwoman (no relation, lol), Luke Cage, Hawkman, Wolverine, and many others are among the vigilantes. These are well-known good guys, but time and time again they find themselves on the other end of the law, but still see themselves as good guys doing the right thing.

Spiderman notices this, and muses aloud about whether or not they're the bad guys after all, pointing out that villains don't think they're villains either - they really think they're doing the right thing. Someone in the group says that they obviously aren't the bad guys, it's different for them, but the reader is left with the notion that, well, actually... they could be the bad guys of the situaton after all.

People are attracted nowadays to the idea of flaws, not only in personality, but also in logic and judgement. I think we're tired of these paragons of justice and rightousness that we as ordinary folk could never hope to measure up to. We've probably felt subconsciously more akin to the bad guys for the reason that they tend to be more like us than the good guys are. I don't really think anyone truly views themselves as a wonderful person, and we probably do enough daily evils* that we can glumly view ourselves as the bad guy.

This trend will probably continue. It's heartening to see something like Batman and think that, yeah, he's doing bad things, but he's doing good things do. It's nice to know that we're capable of both. :)


Date: 2009-01-08 08:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emperial.livejournal.com
Oooh, Iron Man, that's another good example of a hero who uses his brains, and look how everyone ate that up! (It helps when he looks like Robert Downey Jr. and the movie was made of awesome.)

I do admit that I have always, always found flaws attractive. I may like a person for a lot of reasons, but I fall in love with them because of their flaws. It's the same with characters. Flaws are interesting, they're unique -- we all might have the same basic concepts of virtues, and the intention to do good, but our flaws distinguish us. (Like snowflakes!)

More moral ambiguity in our fiction is just what we need, truly.

Date: 2009-01-08 08:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phonixa.livejournal.com
I am a horrible member of the Frollo fangirls.

Its interesting that I found this post when I did, as I was just discussing with a friend on how to create interesting villains; while the one I was discussing was of an intellectual breed, he also happened to be a scholar and not on the scientific bend.

All in all, a very revealing and interesting post. ALSO, damn it, you obliquely mentioned two movies that only you know about. *shakes fist at*

Date: 2009-01-08 08:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
And so I ask you: what the crap?

In other words, can you please enlighten me as to what anyone can find appealing about the guy?

You'll find out about Frog soon enough. Rapunzel, on the other hand ... sigh. Heaven only knows. Maybe the special-edition DVD (because they still make those, right? (she said snidely)) will ... have ... something ...

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Date: 2009-01-08 08:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emperial.livejournal.com
(I probably get a bit off track in this, oh well!)


You have my everlasting, undying admiration for this post, which more than adequately sums up things I've thought and felt for YEARS. It is beyond true that in America people distrust intelligence, they even actively dislike it, and our villains and heroes reflect this, and even feed right back into the problem. Instead of Americans learning to respect and admire intelligence, they vote for someone they think would have a beer with them at the corner pub, someone just like them. Excuse me if I happen to think Joe Six Pack isn't qualified to run the bloody country! Excuse me if I want the smartest, most compassionate person I can get in that Oval Office!

It's even worse that so many times the brainiac gets relegated to a subservient position on the "hero" side. That's fed more cultural stereotypes and caused more emotional damage than I'd care to think about. Plus, you often see that these brainiac good guys, when they try to assert themselves, get thrust into villainy. (Mohinder Suresh, anyone?) The message is clearly, "We only want the smart people so long as they serve us."

I've even got a great real world example of brainiac turned villain. Dr. Richard Dawkins. See, apparently the average American, who strongly values faith and religion, hates with a passion anyone who comes out and says "there's no proof of that stuff, I refuse to believe it." As a result, the average American sees the man as a huge menace to society.

Which is triply hilarious given that this country was created by a bunch of smarter-than-you intellectuals who didn't really put a whole lot of stock in the supernatural and tried to write religion out of as much of the country as they could.

In reference the Incredibles, I would like to say that it was Mr. Incredible's callousness that created Syndrome, so let that be a lesson to all Americans. When you fail to recognize and appreciate intelligence, you create villains from the people who have the capability of being the biggest heroes.

There is one area of American culture you're ignoring, though. Science fiction. Yes, there's a lot of things that are "homg science gone wrong!" but if you look at some of the most enduring franchises in science fiction -- Star Trek, Stargate -- you see that these shows, while they do sometimes contain plots of science gone awry, generally portray scientific progress in a positive light.

While Spock might have been Kirk's first officer, I don't think there'e any denying that he and Dr. McCoy were every bit Kirk's equal, that Kirk often listened to them, and even if the space cowboy was the captain, it was the science officer and the doctor that often prevailed.

Looking at the Stargate series, while the brainiacs in SG1 and Atlantis (Jackson and McKay respectively) both begin as a bit sidekicky, over the course of the shows both became extremely popular and respected, to the point where I would even argue McKay is the -the- central character in Atlantis for the last season, and that while both shows do have plots involving the dangers of science, science and intelligence overall are seen as admirable and respectable traits.

So, America (with a bit of Canadian assistance) does have a few good guy intelligent archetypes, and just like Bart Simpson and Jack Sparrow, these rare folk find hordes of fans hungry for just that sort of thing. Now, if only such characters were more mainstream... Oh, right, there is one incredibly intelligence mainstream hero. You will probably note he is also the most popular character on television. Yep, Dr. House, who I think is a trickster of the first degree, and a brain-powered one at that.

There is some hope. Gradually, I think our culture can shift to being the sort where the average hero is the cleverest person rather than all-American virtuous. At least, I hope so.

Date: 2009-01-08 12:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debitha.livejournal.com
The thing with the basis of the USA is that while the basic laws etc were written, as you say, by a bunch of smarter-than-you intellectuals who didn't really put a whole lot of stock in the supernatural and tried to write religion out of as much of the country as they could, a lot of the actual population were religious nuts whose beliefs were too weird or extreme even for the permissive attitudes of post-Restoration Britain (I don't know enough about what was going on elsewhere in Europe to comment on Dutch, German, etc settlers, so I'll stick with the British ones). So there's a conflict there of ideals vs application which I think is coming through more at the moment than it has done in a long time.

With the two sci-fi examples you've given, in both cases the scientific progress is managed by the military, or in a military way, suggesting that intelligence and scientific progress is fine so long as it's controlled by the government. This also applies to aspectabund's example of the Marvel superheroes - if they aren't working for the government they might be the bad guys. Freelance geniuses in media still tend to be portrayed as dangerous mavericks. "We only want the smart people so long as they serve us," still applies.

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Date: 2009-01-08 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debitha.livejournal.com
This comment is probably going to be shorter than your interesting post deserves. I blame jetlag.

I love a well-written villain, often because they are more interesting and complex than most heroes. Of course, not all villains are well-written, interesting or complex. (Voldemort, I'm looking at you.) I am much more interested in a character with unusual motivations or dilemmas than the gleaming toothed hero, or the cackling hand-rubber villain. A good villain (or secondary character) is much more interesting. Han Solo, dubious hero, is much more engaging to me than Luke Skywalker, standard issue hick-kid-with-big-destiny-and-heart-of-gold.

As far as the evil scientist trope goes, in addition to possible backlash against the development of the atom bomb there are some quite major ethical issues raised by Nazi research into the physical side of psychology. This is a major basis of our modern knowledge of mental health and is invaluable, but came at the cost of horrendous experiments in vivisection. I think the inherent moral dilemma of balancing gaining new knowledge with the cost of doing so, and unease about repeats (e.g. panic over stem cell research?) might also contribute to this underlying discomfort with people who play with the intrinsic workings of things.

I think your observations on Trickster mythology is also fascinating, but I need to be much more awake than this to think about it properly. :o)

Date: 2009-01-08 09:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] priscellie.livejournal.com
Ooh, fascinating analysis. You've set my brain juices a-stewing. It makes me want to write something!

I look forward to listening to that NPR program about anti-intellectualism in America. Though really, need we look any closer than the popularity of Sarah Palin?

Date: 2009-01-08 09:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
It's actually a CBC program (interviewing an American, though, if memory serves), and believe it or not it predates Sarah Palin (or, that is to say, her debut on the national/international stage) and indeed most of the blatantly anti-intellectual rhetoric of the campaign.

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Date: 2009-01-09 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ubiquitouspitt.livejournal.com
Tom Sawyer is a fictional ENTP, dontcha know? :D We're everywhere - gettin in trouble, shootin the place up, fooling other people into paintin the fence.

>I know that the origin for a lot of the mad scientists and evil professors stems from a >crisis of conscience after the atom bomb

Maybe so but why even mention this when mad scientists have, for so long, played the leading villain: Dr Frankenstein, Dr Jekyll, Dr Faustus. I believe the origins of the connection between science and villainy have more to do with man v. god and head v. heart. If the atom bomb never existed, scientists would still find a role as villains.

I'll restate here what we spoke about earlier. I don't think the recent success of "the villain's tale" results from a deep American self-evaluation. I think the increasing popularity of intellectual characters simply arises as a cultural backlash against the conservative influence which has ("had" - lulz) held sway over the status quo since 9/11. Great cultural rebellions have often developed in protest against whatever was the dominant force at the time. A few years of Obama will provide Hollywood with a hungry market for movies on "values", god and "true heroes". Of course, what you say about political environment having a great influence on cultural expression is true. "V for Vendetta" was popular when it was released, but if it had debuted a couple of days after "9/11", it would have bombed.

Well, I am excited to see this grand essay come to fruition :D Well done! A+

Fascinating subject!

Date: 2009-01-11 01:09 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I love your long posts, they're always very interesting to read and thought-provoking even at half past midnight. And reading the ensuing discussion while trying to scrape together a couple of coherent thoughts is worth every sleep-deprived minute. Let's see if I can actually be coherent :)

First off, a lot of stories begin with the villain (especially crime and "noir" stories) having a plan and acting on it, and the hero acting in reaction to it (as in, robbers steal something, coppers investigate). Narrative ping-pong ensues until the good guy incapacitates the bad guy and, in some cases, get the girl. This means that the villain needs to be the proactive one to get the story on track to begin with. This explains why the villain so often appears as the only one who has career prospects that extend beyond the classic "I'll-protect-this-city-if-it's-the-last-thing-I-do" hero attitude.

As for the hero/villain/trickster in American story-telling (literature and film)... I'm French, so I'm not exactly in the best place to discuss it, but as such I wanted to add my two cents (of euro, of course). In France we seem to have a soft spot for tricksters. I mean, for those who know the stories of Reynard the fox this is a perfect example (if you don't, look over here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynard ). The figure of the prankster fox (and, to a lesser extent, that of the cruel, dumb wolf/bear - the brunt of Renard's jokes) is a very important part of French folklore. He's clever, often cunning, and not necessarily always likeable, but he always comes tops in the end by his brain, triumphing over Ysangrim' (the wolf) and Bruin the Bear (and even Noble, the lion king)' brawn.

And while the French-speaking comic-book literature has very few superheroes, the French and Belgian "traditional" comic books every so often star smallish guys (or just not that strong-looking), often looked down on by the bad guys, but who end up defeating them because they just are smarter. Like Tintin, Spirou (one of my favourites, because he's more street-smart than Tintin), Astérix (with and without magic potion), Corporal Blutch (from "Les Tuniques Bleues" - the Bluecoats, set in American Civil War context and often utterly hilarious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Tuniques_Bleues Another favourite :) )...

I don't know what it tells about our culture (a lot of them are Belgian works anyway) but it seems we have a tendency to go for smaller, wily, funny characters. Maybe that's why American comics have a smaller impact here - they rank equal to manga (anime) in public enthusiasm. In France there is no particular age group for comics, too - everyone reads Spirou, for instance, kids, teenagers and adults alike, while mainstream superhero stuff has the reputation of being read mainly by teenage boys. But I digress.

I really took my time and it's past 2 in the morning now, so I hope I conveyed my point. One last thing to make it clear: ten years or so after Sir Arthur Conan Doyle invented Sherlock Holmes, Maurice Leblanc invented Arsène Lupin, gentleman thief. He's clever, gallant, has that "panache" we French so often look for in literature as well as real life, and makes a living out of robbing rich people while publicly making fun of the entire French police force. How's this for a hero? And he's one of our most beloved ones, too. I had a crush on him when I was younger ;)

Good night, and thanks for such an interesting post!

Belphegor :o]

random

Date: 2009-01-11 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] uberklutz.livejournal.com
have you heard of the animation "9" that's supposed to come out this year? I only just stumbled across it.

Re: random

Date: 2009-01-11 01:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlynoodle.livejournal.com
Haha, yes ... about four, five years ago the studio I was working at did a test for service work on it, and since then it seems like every other service studio in the world has had a hand in it.

Date: 2009-01-11 07:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randeepk.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)
Damn woman.
Nice post.

Date: 2009-01-13 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ardys-the-ghoul.livejournal.com
I don't know why I must point this out--maybe because I'm a classics minor?--but the ancient Greeks had a very different view of heros. Nearly all their heros had a dark side, and there are plenty of stories about their heros doing non-heroic things. Herakles (Hercules, whatever) killed his wife and kids, just for an example, and that isn't the only thing that would make anybody reading all the stories about him think that the guy was a raging psychopath--and yet, he's the most enduring Greek hero still known today.

Greek villains, on the other hand, are usually pretty one-sided, usually blood-thirsty monsters like Medusa or Ketos (the sea monster Perseus defeated to save Princess Andromeda).

Okay, I don't know what relevance that has to this discussion, I just thought I'd mention it.

Date: 2009-03-20 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kiwitou.livejournal.com
"It's all an exploration of the difference between What A Hero Would Do and What Needs To Be Done in a world confronted by chaos and senseless destruction..."


Night Watch.
Sam Vimes.
"You do the job that you have to do."

A bit random, and late, I know, but upon reading that it was the only thing I could think of.

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